AUTO-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT

Brianna Battles  00:01

Welcome to the practice brave podcast. I am the host Brianna battles, founder of pregnancy and postpartum athleticism, and CEO of everyday battles. I’m a career strength and conditioning coach, entrepreneur, mom of two wild little boys and a lifelong athlete. I believe that athleticism does not end when motherhood begins, and this podcast is dedicated to coaching you by providing meaningful conversations, insights and interview topics related to fitness, mindset, parenting and of course, all the nuances of pregnancy and postpartum, from expert interviews to engaging conversations and reflections. This podcast is your trustworthy, relatable resource for learning how to practice brave through every season in your life. Hey everyone, welcome back to the practice brave Podcast. Today, I’m here with Joel Jameson, and we’re just going to be talking about sports performance throughout the lifespan. He is a coach who works with a variety of people and has been in the game for a while, and I love bringing on different coaches who could just share their experience of being in this industry, coaching a variety of people, and kind of extracting different themes that you see as a coach, so that we as coaches, athletes and parents can do a good job of Supporting people across their lifespan in terms of, like, health, sport and activity. So Joel, thanks so much for being here. No problem. Glad to be on Yeah, and we got connected through Andrew Coates, which I feel like it’s, it’s like, our due diligence to give him a shout out, because he’s like, the ultimate like matchmaker of people that have similarities and just like, Yeah, different things in common. So thank you, Andrew, for connecting us. So Joel, give us a little bit of your background as a coach and just a little bit about who you are.

Joel Jamieson  01:47

Yeah, sure, I’ve been doing this for 20 plus years. Then I’ll try to keep it sort of shorter than that. But I started coaching early 2000s I started out the University of Washington under a great strength coach named Bill Gillespie. Went spent some time in the Seahawks with him and another good coach named Kent Johnston. And then really decided I didn’t want to play the game of always jumping from job to job in the NFL or as a pro sports coach, so I opened a gym in 2003 and then it happened to be right next to an MMA gym called AMC pan creation, which is the famous Matt Hume, who, in my opinion, is the best MMA coach of all time. And really quickly, I started training a lot of fighters. Ivan Salaberry was the first one I worked with. And he said, Hey, can you train me for k1 and I said, Yeah, sure. And then I kind of had to look up what k1 was. I wasn’t even, I wasn’t really familiar with the sport. So I wish I could have said I opened it next to them intentionally to train fighters. But just happened to be luck. So I was really early in that sport. It was, you know, 2003 was kind of the just pre explosion years. So we had a lot of great fires coming over, working with guys like Chris lieben and rich Franklin, working with pride, and guys like kaitra Sakurai going back and forth to a bunch of pride in k1 fights and just was part of the sport, you know, really becoming a predominant sport in the US from a niche sport. So that was really fun to see. At the same time, early in my career, I’d been introduced to what’s now known as heart rate variability, or HRV, right around the early 2000s as well. So a long, long time before it became popular, it was used now with a lot of fighters, to understand recovery and HRV and how these guys could prepare for fights and using technology and all that sort of stuff. I started a website, 2009 called eight weeks out calm, and wrote a book called Ultimate MMA conditioning. And I wrote it for fighters and coaches training fighters. And to my surprise, I started getting coaches from a wide variety of teams across the globe, different sports I would never thought of kayaking and paddling and circus performers and all kinds of random people that you know weren’t combat athletes, but they didn’t have a good understanding of energy systems. And so I became kind of the energy systems guy for a long time, a metabolic conditioning guy. And then 2011 I launched an HRV system called Bio force HRV, which is one of the first HRV systems in the market. Build a bunch of stuff for coaching around that education on HRV, start working with some big fitness brands, Lifetime Fitness, Equinox, wrote some stuff for NSCA, did a lot of speaking, touring, all sorts of stuff. Worked with groups in China, Australia, England, kind of all over the place, and just been building ever since. So I’ve worked with, like you said, a variety of athletes from youth athletes, which I should mention. I trained a ton of youth athletes. Would like to talk about that, actually, as I had my gym, so youth athletes was a huge piece of it, like he built a huge volleyball program. Of course, worked with men’s sports and soccer, whatnot, but I actually spent a lot of time working with female athletes, and particularly youth female athletes, and that was really rewarding, something we can talk about. So, yeah, that’s the 2000 or 20,000 foot view in a nutshell, hopefully.

Brianna Battles  04:41

Well, that’s great. So you know, I think working with MMA athletes is really interesting because it is such a unique sport where there’s so many different physiological demands that they have to train for. And honestly, please correct me if and when I’m wrong with this. But I feel as if, like the MMA. Culture. Jiu Jitsu culture is so heavy on fight training that there’s not always a lot of, like, focus on strength and conditioning, right? Like, because they just want to fight, they just want to get in there and grapple, they just want to do that kind of training. So sometimes there’s a little Did you feel like there was harder buy in to get people to want to do like, strength and conditioning with you, or, like, hear what you had to say as a coach? You know? I think it’s interesting.

Joel Jamieson  05:21

It depends on the discipline. I think wrestlers inherently like doing a lot more strength conditioning. Jiu Jitsu guys seem to do a bit less. I mean, jiu jitsu guys from Brazil tend to do a bit less than elsewhere. So it really was kind of dependent on the athlete, the combat sport that we’re talking about here. But fortunately for me, I said I was working with Matt Hume, and he oversaw all the skill training. I did the strength conditioning, and we were a combined, integrated team. So it was not like we had to convince the guys to do anything they were flying in from Japan or Brazil or all over the world come train with us. So they weren’t going to come train with us and not do what we told them to, fortunately. But I think in general, it’s like you said, it’s such a demanding sport. There are so many different skills. There are so many different things the athletes have to do, and then some of them aren’t sure where to fit in. A lot of them aren’t sure how to fit in strength conditioning, or they just kind of throw it in randomly as some hard intervals on the day, or run it like they don’t have a plan to it. They just kind of throw something in there, you know, ad hoc. And that’s, that’s usually not the best long term recipe for success.

Brianna Battles  06:17

Yeah, I’ve seen that a lot where it’s like, Well, I do like some lifting, but there’s no like, plan, like, it’s just like, it’s sort of sporadically placed on a Saturday, when they’re not doing that on their Sunday, or, you know, just on a day where they aren’t totally prioritizing other training in a lot of settings, where it’s not as maybe all encompassing as what your dynamic was, yeah.

Joel Jamieson  06:36

And the other challenge too, is kind of, as the sport was growing, you had a lot of strength coaches trying to get into it, and then you had athletes at the pro level. They would have different coaches, and so they would segment too much. They’d have a boxing coach, or, you know, a striking coach, they have a grappling jiu jitsu coach, they’d have a strength conditioning coach, and they often weren’t even talking to each other. I didn’t have a cohesive plan, because sometimes the athletes would be going to three different gyms. They’d be going to striking gym, they’d go into grappling gym, they’d go in strength conditioning gym? And none of those coaches were communicating. And the strength conditioning coaches who are working with them came from a background of team sports, and they just saw that athlete as any other athlete, not realizing they’re basically in season all year round. You’re never really off season as a combat athlete. And so you had just, you know, a lot of combat athletes that took that approach were just getting beat up. They just had way too much volume, too much intensity, no cohesiveness, and you shot take its toll. So I think there’s, there’s a lot of and there still are a lot of problems around that. Unfortunately, yeah,

Brianna Battles  07:29

I was gonna say, I mean, you were like, there in the early era of noticing some of those tendencies where, you know, there’s in other sports, there’s off seasons, there’s more periodization, kind of like different cycles, essentially, but in combat sports in general, and I see this a lot in Jiu Jitsu, which is more of my world, where it’s like, they’ll just train for competitions year round. And it’s so easy to get when you’re in that culture of, like, the fight culture, or MMA culture Jiu Jitsu, where you’re like, Well, this is just how it is, like we’re just kind of constantly, always training for the next thing. But that’s also why we see such a high incidence of injuries and just like, kind of chronic nagging pains, because we’re not really training to peak and then deloading and, like cycling that up. And it’s really it to this day, it’s like the major, major challenge in that scene.

Joel Jamieson  08:16

Yeah, I think 100% is and I think it just kind of goes back to, like, the demands of the sport are so intense that there’s no time where you can just take a break and focus on just strength conditioning or whatever, like you can sports. And I, I kind of started to fall in that trap. When I first started training. I even, like, said the first guy, you know, I kind of made the same assumptions, like, oh, I can train this guy like I train my other athletes. And not too long into that, I said, I need to go train with these guys to really understand the demands a lot better. And so I started training for myself, and it was really quickly. I quickly realized, like, Wait a minute. Wait a minute, these guys are not like a football player in the offseason or any other athlete. These guys are busting their ass three to five hours a day training their sport trains a week, and you can’t treat them like another athlete. So that was a big, huge eye opener. Then, plus, I was using, again, heart rate variability, looking at their recovery, looking at the whole thing, and you just realize it’s a very different game to train a combat athlete than is really any other athlete out there.

Brianna Battles  09:09

Yeah, elaborate more on that. Like, what are you what did you see with like HRV and like your own like, self experimentation, but also what you were seeing with some of these really high level athletes?

Joel Jamieson  09:18

What were you seeing? Yeah. I mean, look, you basically see that the athletes can’t take five to six days of really hard training and sparring, and that’s what a lot of them thought they needed to do. You know, I think that they have this mindset, or a lot of them do that, this. You just come in, you bang it out, you go as hard as you can, you spar, you roll, you grapple, you do all these things, and then you lift, or you do your conditioning. And you think you can recover from that. The problem is you can for a while in your 20s. You know, a lot of these guys are late teens, early 20s, mid 20s, they can start getting away with it, but as they age, it catches up with them, and that’s why you see fairly short careers, aside from the nature of the sport itself. And so it took education, and again, fortunately, you know, Matt Hume is one of one of his strengths was watching an athlete train. Talking the athlete and understanding what they needed or what they didn’t need for that day, and adjusting as necessary. And that’s really what our approach came down to, is having a plan, but always being willing to be flexible with that plan, using, again, just coaching skill and talking the athletes, looking at the data, looking at the plan. You know, having that all there. And you know, that’s, I think, a big part of why we’re so successful. We went years and years and years and years without any fighter ever having to pull out of a major event. When you had that happening every other weekend, it seemed like in the UFC there was some top, you know, fight being canceled because one of the athletes got hurt, and we were fortunate enough to avoid that, not that we didn’t have injuries, but we didn’t have fight ending injuries and career ending injuries and those sorts of things. So really just reinforced you have to take care of yourself for the long term, and you have to be prioritizing recovery, not just treating this as afterthought, or taking a week off after a fight then jumping right back into it. So everything we did was about programming the weekly structure around recovery and making sure the athletes were not going week to week and week and just degrading over time.

Brianna Battles  10:57

Well, that is so ahead of the times for especially the MMA community, because even still, I feel like we see the more is better. And if you’re not training hard all the time, then you’re you’re not getting better like that. The only way to get better is to train really hard. And oftentimes, I’ll say, like man, like the the culture and the belief systems of the MMA and jiu jitsu community feels like it’s 20 years behind, like it’s just like repeating what their coach told them instead of what we actually know about strength and conditioning research. And I think it’s sometimes hard. It’s hard for me being an athlete in the sport, even even knowing better from my coach brain to sort of like check the athlete brain and approach side of things just because of the culture that you’re immersed in.

Joel Jamieson  11:44

Yeah, and that’s why I think using data, using HRV, looking at rest and heart rate, whatever you want to use a heart rate training during the during your rolling sessions, or training, it all matters, because it gives you a lot better perspective of where you’re at, where you’re trying to go, and making sure you’re on that path. And you do have people making an effort here like Duncan. French is the head of the UFC Performance Institute. He’s put out a ton of good stuff. He’s got some huge resources you can download for free if you look into it. He’s got a whole bunch of stats and data on that. And he’s a friend of mine, and he’s done a great job trying to educate the community. If you go to the UFC pi, they have massive amount of stuff for recovery. They’ve got everything you can possibly think of. So I think there has been a greater emphasis on it at the top level, at least. Maybe it doesn’t trickle down to the younger levels. But I used to tell people, I mean, we had World Champion athletes, and we really never, except for very few weeks, they’ve never spar more than twice a week. It was Tuesdays and Saturdays. That was it. Those are the sparring days. Other than that, it was skill drills, strength conditioning, everything else. So then you go in these other gyms, they’d be trying to spar five, six days a week, like, Yeah, this is not like, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t go to NFL team and watch them, you know, do full contact practice right up until a game. In fact, they don’t even do real full contact the NFL level. They just play the game. That’s their contact.

Brianna Battles  12:53

So, yeah, it’s funny that you say that, like, because you’re right, like, top level, yeah, I feel like they have, they have a lot of great support. They have a lot of great minds behind this. They have that research and that insight where they’re getting, yeah, they just have that info. But I think practice at more of, like, a recreational level, but you don’t always see that, you know, like, and I think that’s, that’s the battle is, like, we are getting more and more people interested in combat sports, more kids interested in combat sports. So now they’re starting at an earlier age, coming up in this sport, instead of, like, starting, you know, in their teens. And it’s just, I think it’s going to be interesting. And I love, I love what you’re saying about, like, looking at the data to know how to, like, guide training, which we know from strength conditioning. But I guess tying it to that world is a different story sometimes. Yeah, it’s

Joel Jamieson  13:39

just the sports still evolving. It’s still early. I mean, it’s, it’s progressed a lot from 2000 345, when I first was getting started, but it’s still a long ways to go. I mean, the other sports have been around for just a longer time. But look, I mean, kids these days, and sports, other sports over train insanely amount, insane amounts to I mean, we can talk about this, but when I was training the volleyball athletes and building volleyball program, I mean, those those kids were, you know, young teens, mid teens, and they were going from high school to club and to camps and never taking a break. And, you know, we were seeing non contact injuries all over the place, and like 14 year old girls who were tearing, tearing ACLs and doing all kinds of stuff, from just overuse, you know, at the early teens. So it’s not just combat sports. I think it’s just the mentality, unfortunately, that more is better seems to be a thing we latch on to. And ultimately, more is not better. If it’s it’s worse, right?

Brianna Battles  14:29

That’s so true. Yeah. I mean, we definitely see that a lot. I have two, two little boys, and they’re both, like, one little 111’s and I’m feeling like, at his age, I’m really starting to see that, where kids are starting to like specialize more. They’re like, well, we just play baseball, or we just do football and like this club team for this, but it’s all the same sport. And even as a coach, and even like, and I will, like, die on the Hill of like, training as many sports as you can for as long as you can before they like, quote, specialize. Yeah, so I want my boys are playing a lot of different sports, but you do start to see these kids specialize in one sport, and they get all the specific lessons, like on pitching lessons, for example, but then by the time they’re like, 1415, they’re they’re injured, or they’re burned out, like you see, both of those things as more common than them riding out the sport for a long period of time. Yeah, like,

Joel Jamieson  15:24

the problem is become so competitive you have to make the right club team, then you have to get, you know, recruited for the right college. And so kids are pushed into these specializations pretty early. And then the other thing, I think, on top of that, is PE programs are either non existent or not what they were. And the problem is there’s a difference between skill and then general athletic development. Like kids don’t ever really get taught how to run. They don’t get taught how to land and jump. They don’t get taught how to change direction. They don’t get taught these fundamental skills. And so you get them playing volleyball or playing some sport their whole life, and they’ve never developed basic athletic movement, and that’s the thing. I’d get these volleyball girls coming in, we would film them, and we’d look at their mechanics for landing, jumping, moving, and they just had no idea how to land. They didn’t have the great hip strength, they didn’t have good core strength. They were just a mess. And you could see every time they were landing, they were just destroying their knees and low back over and over again, because no one taught them how to land. No one taught them how to jump, no one hunt, taught them these basic skills. And then you put them in a volleyball program where, again, they’re playing school, then they’re playing club. In between those two, they’re doing camps, they’re doing tournaments, like they’re just playing volleyball, basically 1111, and a half months out of the year, two to five days a week without basic movement skills. And again, you get to the point where they’re in their high school years where they’re most likely to get their recruiting or get recruited by the college, or the only time they can get recruited by college, and they’re just beat up and they can’t play the recruitment or they have to take half a season off, or they’re burned out mentally and they just don’t want to do anymore. So I think the problem is, you just take this very short side approach of, I’m going to really go 100% with my daughter and get her into everything possible, which is, their parents, mean, well, they, you know, but it’s, it comes to the cost of where they’re developed down the road, and that’s what takes the biggest hit, which is unfortunate, because they have to be performing their best in their high school years later, high school years they’re gonna get recruited, but by that time, you know, they might not have anymore.

Brianna Battles  17:17

Yeah. I mean, it’s, it is so true. And I worked like my previous life, before getting into working with like female athletes and pregnant postpartum athletes, was working in collegiate athletics, both in strength conditioning, but also with water polo athletes. And you would see, like the best athletes played multiple sports for a long period of time, and that was also a sport where they didn’t grow up playing water polo, it was still like a newer sport. So you didn’t have girls that had started playing at five or six years old like you do in soccer and volleyball and softball and all of these things. And it’s like just trying to preserve that longevity of the sport, and not just of the sport, but like, you know, again, I’m working with women that are maybe closer to their 30s and still wanting to be athletic, but now they have, like, this whole previous life of like sport injuries and belief systems attached to like, what their gymnastics culture was like, their dance culture, what their you know, what other co their collegiate coach said to them, and that all follow them throughout their lifetime, and it’s like now as coaches and parents, how are we changing this next generation of like training approach on behalf of what their future looks like, both like their athletic potential, but just their athletic enjoyment across the lifespan. You know? Yeah, look,

Joel Jamieson  18:27

I think, I think it’s hard, like I said, because it’s become so competitive, just making club teams in different sports is competitive, and so you want to give your kid the best possible advantage to do that. And so what you think, Well, I’m gonna get him to specialized training, I’m gonna put him this camp, I’m gonna hire a special coach, and you’re gonna do all these things to give them the advantage, and maybe that does give them the advantage of short run, but again, it can come to the cost of their long term progression, their long term ability to stay healthy and play. And so it’s a hard choice. I think parents have it. You know, you have to really think hard about what is right for your kid, and whether or not that extra practice now, or the extra training, the extra camp, the extra coaching, is going to pay off the long run. Or, or, you know, there’s a better approach. So I don’t, I don’t think there’s easy answers. You sometimes do have to sacrifice maybe the immediate development for the long term development, but that’s a hard thing

Brianna Battles  19:13

to do. It’s hard, like I said, like, even like, being like, I feel really convicted in like, really just trying to support overall athletic development, like, I want them being athletes first and then good at the sport second. And it’s all very transferable. Like they started jujitsu at four, and that’s one of those sports where I see that carryover into their movement patterns. And just like, knowing how to fall, like, if they’re playing football, like knowing how to fall, knowing how to hit, knowing how to get hit, being able to, like, protect their neck, you know, like little, little things, but that are also ultimately big things in terms of them being overall, like well rounded athletes. But it’s harder. The better that they get, the more involved they get in sports where it’s like, well, they want to travel, they want to do club. They’re getting asked to participate in these things, and I enjoy. Like, not yet, like, I know there will be a time for that, but I am trying to extend this period of time where they can keep doing jiu jitsu year round, like, sprinkled in, but doing, like, football, baseball and basketball. It just kind of like cycled these things through so that each sport kind of helps develop the other sport. What are your thoughts on that, you know? Because I think it’s hard for parents to know, like what to do. And you know, coaches want to do better.

Joel Jamieson  20:26

I think for long term development, you know, you do want them to do as many different skills, as many different movements in sports as possible for long term now and again. I think the problem is, in the short term, there is no doubt that if you specialize, you’re going to be ahead of the game than someone who doesn’t pay us for as much like in the short run, you are going to be less developed, but you’re just have a much better long term, I would say, opportunity to continue to develop and be better across not just your school age, but your the rest of your life. I think the problem is, and this is maybe going to sound harsh, but there are a lot of parents who think that their athletes or their son or daughters are just better than they are. I hate to say that, but the reality is, there’s, there’s only a certain percentage of athletes who are going to get college scholarships are going to and there’s even way fewer than that, they’re going to have an actual career in that sport. And so, you know, far too often, you see these parents and they’re like, I hate to say but their kids are just they’re not athletically gifted enough to be at the d1 level or even the d3 level, they’re not going to be a professional, whatever athlete they are, right? So if you recognize that maybe your Outlook is a little bit different, and maybe you are a little bit more understanding of not pushing them to their limit when they’re 12 or 13, because that’s not going to pay off for them if they’re not going to, you know, pursue it the rest of their lives. So again, I know it’s kind of harsh, but I think that the reality is the best athletes will always win out. Like they will rise, they’ll rise, they’ll get to the top, and you will know, like, realistically, if your son or daughter is the top, they will be obvious, because they will be recruited everywhere. They will be better than everybody else from almost the beginning. Like most of the really good athletes I’ve seen, they were always really good athletes. They were always better than the rest of the kids they were playing against. They were playing up two or three levels because they just were better. They had better genetics. They had better whatever motor skill development from the very beginning. So if your son or daughter just doesn’t have it, that’s fine, but just, you know, maybe you have that perspective and make sure that they’re enjoying the sports, and they’re trying different sports, and they’re doing it for fun, not to try to, you know, be the best there ever was, or the best that’s going to get them to the college level, just enjoying the sport. And then if your kid does rise to the top, then then maybe you take a slightly different approach and be a little bit more aggressive on the coaching. But I’ve just seen so many athletes I’m like, this kid is never going to be, you know, a college level athlete or pro athlete, and they’re being trained like one, and you know, I’m gonna do my best to keep the athlete healthy and make make their career better. But you know, I would never tell the athlete parent, like, hey, this kid’s gonna be the next world star. Like, I was honest, like, I tried a little more sober in my assessments with people of what the potential was, so they had a little bit better understanding. But yeah, I think the long term plan comes with, starts with what is the goal here, and being realistic with those goals is an important

Brianna Battles  23:13

part of that, totally managing expectations, especially of the parents, because sometimes it’s more so driven from than it is the freaking kids, you know, and it drives me crazy. It’s almost always, yeah, I mean, how much do you struggle with that? Like, working with these, like, youth athletes? Is that, like, the biggest pain in the ass of your job right now? Or, like, but it’s

Joel Jamieson  23:34

always hard. It’s, it’s expect. I think expectations is important in general. It’s the same thing with anyone who comes in and says, I want to lose 10 pounds, and you’re like, and you’re like, yeah, that’s gonna take longer than a week, right? Like, right? People have very distorted expectations, in general, based on social media and based on all the things they’ve heard or seen or just their their skewed perception of what’s possible the human body. And so I think that’s where a lot of coaches go wrong, is they’ll they’ll either play into those expectations because they want to sign that client up or they want to get that athlete. Want to get that athlete started training with them. And so you kind of feed some of those like, we’re going to do this, we’re gonna do that maybe, you know, it’s easy to, I don’t know if oversell is the right word, but it’s maybe easy to not be extremely specific and in what is possible and what isn’t possible. And so I always start there, you know? And I think if you are honest with people, you tell them what to expect, how long it’s realistically going to take, you know, how hard it’s actually going to be, and what the path looks like. You’re just much more likely to keep somebody than if you tell them, hey, in the next four weeks, we’re going to take two inches off your waist and add five inches to your biceps, some nonsense. That doesn’t happen, you know? They fall off and they’re going to go try to find somebody else who’s going to be making promises. So I just think promises. So I just think transparency and honesty is a really important part of getting buy in and compliance and keeping people happy and doing your job. No, I

Brianna Battles  24:50

definitely agree, and I think, you know, there’s a space, and I wouldn’t want to get your insight here, but you know, for the kids that maybe they love volleyball or they. Love baseball, and that’s the sport that they’re wanting to do more of. Do you feel as if strength and conditioning, then, has to become a huge priority for these athletes, since they’re getting so much volume of their sport?

Joel Jamieson  25:14

Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I think the thing is, all those sports, they’re teaching skill. They’re teaching how to hit a volleyball. They’re teaching a hit a baseball or catch. They’re not teaching basic athletic movement. Still kind of boggles my mind. Nobody teaches a kid how to run their running mechanics are just not taught. Jumping mechanics are just not taught. Rotational skills like basic movements patterns are not taught anymore. They used to be developed to some extent through PE programs that were some better than others, but fundamental movement and athleticism is not developed anymore. And again, the reality is too like a middle school volleyball coach has no clue how to teach sprinting mechanics or jumping mechanics or change of direction or landing, or they have no idea teaching you that. They’re just teaching you how to hit a volleyball or how to serve or how to return, or whatever, like pass like that is missing, and that’s where strength conditioning should play a role. Is developing, not just the physical fitness, but the actual basic movement skill and movement patterns that transfer into every sport. And I think that’s the biggest thing to keep in mind.

Brianna Battles  26:18

Yes, I mean, that’s there’s so much truth to that. And I think sometimes we like hope that sports will be the thing that instills it enough. But oftentimes you’re right, like, who’s actually running this basketball practice for these seven year old kids? And like, they’re not going to be teaching change of direction and, like, just better movement patterns and landing skills. So they, you know, kids look like a bunch of, like, awkward baby deers out there, and then when you and then like you add on, like the cultural side of not only has PE been removed in a lot of places or it’s not as frequent or not as prioritized, we also have a generation of kids that are being raised just to be a lot more sedentary in general. So even, like, their basic play of just playtime, but with the neighborhood and, like, with friends like that, has been so incredibly limited for so many kids, too. And I think that’s created a culture of UN athletic movers, where like that, if that’s not even being developed through play, nevertheless, through like, specificity, yeah, no, 100%

Joel Jamieson  27:15

I mean, I hate to point a finger at social media, but I don’t think social media has done no kids a favor. You know, it’s eliminated a lot of personal skills. It’s eliminated a lot of kids just getting together and playing and doing things that you know, that used to do now. They’re just sitting there on their phones playing games or talking to each other, whatever. Who knows? But it’s unfortunate because I grew up without a phone and without a computer and all those things, and you had to go see if your friend was home by knocking on his door and maybe calling his parents like there was no, there was no other way to find out they’re there to go their house or join the local basketball game down the street or whatever. So yes, it is unfortunate. Again, I think parents have a harder job than ever

Brianna Battles  27:51

trying to facilitate like a 90s childhood here, because I will, like absolutely my boys will not be having phones for a very long time, zero social media. And they have, thankfully, neighborhood kids that they can play with. And they do. They make up games. They’re on the trampoline. They’re playing constantly. So I’m like, get out of the house. You cannot be in the house on screens. It’s not happening. And like, trying to facilitate that, yes, because I don’t want them to just be like, brain rotting, but like, because ultimately, I know these are like just learning to play and creating activity for fun, where it’s just for fun, not even for practice or for sport like that. They’re using their bodies for fun like that’s the thing that ultimately creates better movers and better little athletes as they age up. Yeah, 100%

Joel Jamieson  28:37

I mean, that’s what it should be about as a kid, right? I think if the kid loves the sport, then you start going more into it. But again, that starts with them having fun, enjoying time with their friends, being outside, doing all those things, and then everything progressives from there. So unfortunately, it’s not like that a lot of

Brianna Battles  28:50

places, but that’s a choice that No, and that’s the thing. Like, really, it’s like, maybe that’s common sense for us. We’re like, we’ve worked with a lot of different people. We’ve sort of seen it all play out, right? I think that’s like, we can, like, zoom out, because we’re like, I’ve seen that 20 year old athlete. I’ve seen that 16 year old athlete. I’ve seen that 24 year old athlete in like, the trajectory of their different experiences and approaches. And it’s like, so it’s common sense for us, but it’s just, it’s not really common practice at all anymore for raising this next generation of kids in sports and, like, just helping them develop athletically and while still enjoying the sport and, you know, riding it out for as long as they can.

Joel Jamieson  29:27

Yeah, no, I agree. It’s unfortunately, it’s just kind of lost that part of culture that we had as kids, and it’s up to parents to try to make the right decisions so they can, you know, fix that as far as their family is concerned. I live kind of outside of the city area, and I see kids riding around their bikes and doing stuff after they never saw when I was when I was living in closer to the city, when I was living in Hawaii, doing a winter juicy all the kids in Hawaii out surfing and jumping the water and ride their bikes up and down the beach and, you know, just such an outdoor environment that the kids could be outdoors all the time. I think there’s so much to be said for just that side of kids life, versus. Just, you know, always being on the court, or always being in practice and all those sorts of things which are important part of it, but if that’s their entire life, I think they’re missing out on all not not just physical development, but social and everything else as

Brianna Battles  30:11

well, right? Which is also a huge part of being successful as an athlete, is having, like, the interpersonal skills to be able to have conversations with your teammates, being a good teammate, being somebody can have a conversation with your coach and like that part is also sort of like, and it’s interesting, like, seeing this all from the scope of being a coach, first, before I became a mom, and now that I see my 11 year old, I’m like, Oh my God. Like, you just start to see the differences among kids. Like at this age, I’m I feel like it’s really kind of been exposed, like, just all the different influences that you know these kids have on them, and who will rise, not just from their physicality and their athleticism or their interest in the sport, but also their ability to be like a good teammate, their ability to be a good communicator, their ability to like interact and just like be part of a team, or know how to be competitive, know How to lose, know how to win. Like, it’s so much of that, and it’s a it’s been really interesting to observe.

Joel Jamieson  31:07

Yeah, I imagine. And the other thing too is it comes down to the coaches that your team are running, coaching the teams that they’re on. That’s part of the hard thing too, is you assume that, like the best teams always have the best coaches. You want them there. But that’s not always the case. Sometimes the lower teams have amazing coaches. So I think it’s important don’t just consider team selection based on like, where that team is ranked, but who’s coaching them. Get to know the coach and see if that’s somebody that you actually want influencing your son or daughter, because they do have a big influence over them, and they have a lot of time spent with them. So it’s important to talk to other parents and look around and find out who the coaches are that everybody loves and things as a great coach versus maybe who the coaches that maybe are more competitive or more successful, but maybe they’re not actually the one that you want your son or daughter being coached by?

Brianna Battles  31:48

Yeah, amen to that. Okay, so you have done a variety of different like coaching efforts, from working with a lot of MMA athletes to youth athletes to HRV and kind of like getting into that, like that world, writing a book, presenting different organizations you’ve done a lot over the span of your career. What does it look like for you now?

Joel Jamieson  32:13

You know, really, I’m just continuing to try to educate on the highest level possible, so I can kind of help share what I’ve learned over the years and decades of doing this now to more people, like your audience, everyone else, and just sharing that and working on a bigger, comprehensive course on heart rate variability, I think there’s still a lot of misinformation out there about how to use data and how to use heart rate variability in particular. So I’m just working to educate coaches. I’ve had about 20,000 coaches go through a certification course I have on conditioning, so I’m working to expand that, working with bigger gyms and building their educational courses out. So really, to me, it’s just trying to pass on what I’ve learned over the years, and the more people I can pass it on to, the better. And then I also say that now I’m in my mid 40s, my own perspective has changed from, you know, performance as a 20 year old to staying alive as long as possible, as a 45 year old, and slowing down aging as much as possible, which is a goal that a lot of people have. Obviously, these days, I think there’s been more talk about vo two, Max and zone two, training and recovery. I think that’s been a big topic lately. And so I’m really trying to expand on that, because that’s also where I’m at personally, and what I’m diving into as I age. And so, you know, getting to those sort of topics are a big part of what I’m doing now as well.

Brianna Battles  33:22

Doing now as well. Oh, interesting. And most of your business is online then, and like, trying to, like, funnel people to the certification yeah, I’ve

Joel Jamieson  33:28

got a certification course, like I mentioned some other courses. I have an app called Morpheus, which is my HRV app that’s, that’s heart rate variability and heart rate training. So building that platform, and coaches can use it with their clients and monitor their data. So it’s just kind of this big picture of helping people understand the intersection between conditioning, recovery and then either performance, they’re an athlete, or health, longevity, if they’re

Brianna Battles  33:51

if they’re not, yeah. Okay, so like, walk me through that, because I we have a lot of different listeners, a lot of different coaches, but a lot of different athletes. And so I want you to explain to me if I’m a coach and I’m working with somebody, and I would love to incorporate more, like, heart rate variability and just understand that more. What does that process look like, just like walking through it from me as a coach, but also the athlete experience and like, what are we measuring? What are we looking at, and then what are we doing with those results? Yeah, that’s a long

Joel Jamieson  34:14

topic right there, but give me the hair. So without going too deep in the science, heart rate variability is a way to monitor the stress on your body and, most importantly, your body’s response to the stress of the world around us. And so we tend to think of the workout as, you know, the only major stress around us, but it’s not. There’s massive stress from our daily interactions with other people and the world around us to our nutrition and the environment and our sleep and all these things impact our body, right? And the whole purpose of training, from a health and longevity standpoint, is to make our body more resilient, to help our body be able to cope with that stress more effectively. Because over the course of our life, our body starts to degrade its ability to deal with. Stress effectively. What I mean by that is, if you think about how you respond to getting sick or injured when you’re 20, it takes, I don’t know, a few days and your cold is gone, your flu is gone, or your injuries are healed, or you don’t get injured. Then you get your 30s, and might take a little bit longer, then you get your 40s, and takes a little bit longer, and you start to realize the body just doesn’t repair itself as quickly, it takes longer to get over everything, and then you start getting more injuries, and you start seeing these things just take a lot longer and feel a lot worse than they did when your 20s. And that happens because our body is adaptive machinery. The way that we adapt the world around us, repair ourselves and get stronger and train and improve it just all gets worse. The metabolic machinery that does that slows down, and it doesn’t get as it’s not as good. So the reason that we train is to prevent that, to slow that process down as much as possible. So that means we’re using stress as a way to make our body better at dealing with stress and HRV, because it’s showing us and giving us an insight into how well our body is recovering how resilient it is and how that’s changing over time. It just helps us make smarter decisions about volume, load, intensity, frequency, methods, exercise, all that sort of stuff. And just as importantly, it helps us understand the interaction between our lifestyle variables, our sleep or nutrition or mental stress, and our training variables, which are not disconnected. They’re entirely connected because they’re all different, different different forms of stress. And so we can use it from a couple of perspectives. One, we can use look at a daily I’ll get into the science of like, the measurement stuff in a bit. But we can use it from a daily standpoint to say, where is my body at? Am I is my body starting to get run down? Is my body a bit fatigued, or is my body ready to go? And then we can use that information to just say, Hey, should I dial it back today? Should I go 100% do I need a day off and just just kind of asking ourselves the question of, what’s the most appropriate level of training today for me and or, man, I really didn’t get enough sleep tonight. I really need to get more sleep tomorrow, because I see the effects of poor sleep from the previous night, and looking at those lifestyle variables so we can just use it to be smarter in our decision making process on a daily basis and over time. That adds up a lot. If you make just a little bit better decisions every single day over months and years, those decisions add up to huge improvements and changes. The second thing is, we can look at heart rate variability, along with other things like resting heart rate and different performance markers, to say, Are we actually improving? Are we actually getting better towards whatever aim that we have? And it’s relatively easy. When it comes to strength, we know if we’re getting stronger, we know if the scale is going up or down, if we’re trying to change our body weight, but a lot of people on the metabolic side don’t really know. Am I actually getting more fit? Like maybe things feel a bit easier to do than did last month, or whatever they don’t have an objective gage of, is my metabolic conditioning improved? Is my aerobic system conditioning? This is where looking at long term trends in HRV and particularly rest in heart rate, which are usually measured together, can just give us a lot of information. Are we getting better? And if we’re not, what do we need to change? And if we are, then we just keep it up. So in that sense, what we’re trying to do, like I said, is make smarter decisions and then get information about whether or not we’re improving or not, which goes back to making smarter decisions if we’re not. So in the big picture, that’s what we’re trying to use data for, all data, but that’s particularly what HRV is really, really good at. On a practical level, there’s different ways to measure it generally. There’s two categories. There’s devices that you wear overnight that give you an overnight average. I think those are a lot better at the trend side of things like I just mentioned, and really not very good at the Daily picture. And then there are ones like my app Morpheus, which is where you spend about two and a half three minutes morning measuring your HRV, and you’re getting an actual number that’s based on where you’re at right now. And it’s kind of the same concept as if you were to weigh yourself throughout the day and take an average versus weighing yourself first thing in the morning. Now, I think that if you weighed yourself every day on average, you’d probably get a long term trend. Would change would be meaningful, but that daily change might not be as meaningful. It might just reflect what you ate for that particular day. So you spend in my app, and the way I’ve always done HRV, and where the majority of research has been done, you spend a few minutes the morning you measure HRV, and then you use that information to again, just say, hey, what’s the best thing for me to do today? Is, if I had a hard session planned today, is it a go? Or should I maybe dial it back a bit? Or, you know, am I good to go? It just helps you dial in that daily session. And so every morning this practically, I measure my HRV, I weigh myself, and I measure my blood pressure, and all those things give me a lot of tools to make better decisions. And ultimately, that’s, that’s what training comes down to. It’s just the decisions you make every day, all over and over again. That’s what’s the difference between getting great results and completely falling flat and and not?

Brianna Battles  39:41

Yeah, I haven’t. I’m so curious to test this on different like, pregnant and postpartum athletes. Like, I would be really interested to see what the trends are like, I know probably have some hypothesis I would like, yeah, postpartum mom is probably not looking too great, but yeah, I think she’d be really interesting. Have you worked with. Population at all. And have you noticed anything?

Joel Jamieson  40:02

Yeah, I mean, in general, you tend to see HIV decline during a pregnancy because they’re producing more energy, and they’re breaking down a lot of energy to give to the baby, obviously, and that’s part of what we see in HIV. But also, everyone’s different, and the goal is really kind of prevent that degrade as much as possible. It happened for most people, but if you’re doing the right things, you’re getting enough sleep, you’re managing stress, you’re eating well, you’re doing staying fit. Those things will slow that process down, and your baby will be healthier, and you’ll be healthier because of it. So it’s a really good barometer. Again, I think the best way to put it is resilience. You want to be as resilient as possible. You want your body to be as good as possible at coping with everything you throw at it, and that’s where HRV is showing us how well your body is doing that. And if you can maintain your HRV higher level as you age, you’re more likely to slow that process of aging down, and you’re less likely to have, you know, crippling diseases and injuries and all the things that we don’t want

Brianna Battles  40:57

to have. Yeah, I think that’s a really great point, because it’s like, this is something that we can measure and that we can look at that if we’re really trying to have the longevity conversation, which is certainly trending on social media about, you know, this sauna and this red light and all these different things. But like, physiologically, like, what are we doing? What do we have control of? What are the trends that we can look at now and then, just like, play a long game towards it, you know?

Joel Jamieson  41:23

Yeah. And again, that’s thing. All those things can be used. Those are tools, right? Like, those are tools. But the question is, how much, like number one, do you need them? Number two, how much do you need? And number three, are they working? And you can’t really answer that without HIV very effectively, yeah. Really see the the end result of whether or not my numbers are going the right direction and whether or not things are having a positive effect, and you can very easily overdo those things. They’re all forms of stress, just like training. And if you do too much or too little, the results aren’t what you want them to be. So that’s where, again, having real data and real metrics to look at just help guide that process, and if you don’t have them, the reality is, a lot of this is just guesswork, and some people are better at guessing than others, and there are, you know, ways you can make informed decisions without data, but it makes it a lot easier if you have it right, especially, like, just to get data so you

Brianna Battles  42:08

can start, like, noticing your own trends. Like, you know, there’s a sentiment of like, I’m just listening to my body, but most of us don’t really know what to listen for. We don’t really know how to listen to our body. We’re pretty as athletes, like, really programmed to sort of push through and then we’re not always smart with our training. And then it’s then it shows so shocking when you know you’re injured or you feel like shit and like you don’t feel like you’re recovering, or you just kind of chronically have issues when this is sort of a way to, like, hack ourselves that’s not even

Joel Jamieson  42:35

that hard to do. Yeah, no, like you said, I think people want to believe that they’re in tune with themselves, and I would say most people are not. And even, even even then, I would say that when you feel by time that you feel something that’s very noticeable, it’s kind of past the point where you could have prevented that. So and even some things just don’t really correlate. It’s like we have this assumption that, like being really sore, it’s going to reduce your performance. But if you look at all that research, muscle soreness and performance are not really very well correlated. People can be so people can be sore and still perform at a very high level. So these things we think might be indicators aren’t always the best indicators, and our ability to judge those things and make decisions from them are not always very good. And like you said, people have this mindset of more is better, regardless of whether or not I’m feeling good is the right way to go. And then I will also say people vastly underestimate the impact of lifestyle, and they somewhat over impact the workout and overestimate the workout. And what I mean by that is workouts an hour a day. You know, maybe it’s two depends what you’re doing, maybe, maybe more sometimes, but the rest of your day is 2223 hours. You know, it’s a huge influence. The amount of sleep you get, the sleep quality, the food you put in your mouth, the things you’re doing in between the workouts, and the mental stress comes along with all of those things add up. You know, those are a massive, massive factor of how your body’s responding to the workout, and that’s really for a lot of people, I would say the limiting factor, because if you don’t make training, you train, and then your body isn’t instantly better during the workout. It’s the hours in between the workout where your body has to adapt and improve and what you’re doing those hours is what dictates whether or not that happens. It’s not a given that every time you work out, your body’s gonna make itself magically better. If you’re not doing the things you need to, getting to sleep, dealing with mental stress, all those sorts of things, you’re not doing those things, and the body’s not gonna respond the way you want it to. And those hours are hugely important. Lifestyles is, again, the easiest way I would say it is for a lot of people, lifestyle is the single biggest living factor, not the workout. Because I don’t care how hard you work out if you don’t recover from it in a positive way, because you didn’t do the things that you should have done, you didn’t get enough sleep, maybe you had too much to drink, maybe you’re stressed out of your mind at work, you know? Maybe you’re who knows, lots of things happen in life, but it’s the lifestyle that sets the result of the workout, and that’s something that HIV very clearly shows people. And that’s another important role for it.

Brianna Battles  44:53

That’s a really important point, you know. And I have to say, like your background is pure. Strength Conditioning, right? Was that, like, your educational background, was that in that realm? No, not really. No, okay, you just got into the strength conditioning world early on.

Joel Jamieson  45:09

Yeah. I mean, I grew up lifting weights and loving that side of it, and then was an athlete in high school and played briefly college football, and then I just liked, I always loved the training side of it, and I was always trying to dissect it and read about it and understand it. And maybe it’s just because I want to get faster results, but yeah, just always like, the end of it. And so I’ve just been fascinated throughout my whole life and done different things

Brianna Battles  45:29

learn about it. You’ve gone, like, outside the box of traditional like, strength and conditioning. And I think that there’s so many people that enter this realm of like, Oh, I’m going to work in, you know, the private sector. I’m going to work like, collegiate athletics. I’m going to work here. I’m going to do this. And what I think is really interesting is you were really ahead of the game of being, like, visionary and entrepreneurial in, like, seeing something and then creating something within this realm. And I don’t feel like our industry, they’re starting to do that more. But I don’t feel like that traditionally, was the pathway for so many people in this, in this, in this realm.

Joel Jamieson  46:09

Yeah, I think for me, it just came down to realizing how much I didn’t know. And I think that’s the first thing you have to understand, is no matter how much you know about the human body, there’s so much more that you don’t know. And for me, it was always about, how do I get better as a coach? How do I train people more effectively to reach their goals? And in order to do that, you really have to start studying the body from different perspectives. You can’t just read strength conditioning books. I hate to say it, there’s a wider realm. And so one of the first influences I was really impacted by was getting Dr Robert Sapolsky. I would highly recommend everyone write that name down and do one of two things. He’s got a book called Why zebras don’t get ulcers, and that book is really about how the body responds to stress and what stress is. And he’s studied baboons and researched them for decades to understand the stress physiology behind it. He’s a professor at Stanford, and that book is really eye opening, because it’s just, again, you just have a broader picture of strength, conditioning, health, fitness, all these things. When you understand that common denominator underlies all of it, the human experience is stress. And if you don’t understand that, you’re missing out on what all the stuff is doing. And then if you don’t want to read the book, which I do recommend reading, he’s got his entire human behavioral biology course from Stanford online for free, like you can go through literally the same he’s just, it’s just a lecture series that he did at Stanford on all these different areas of human behavior biology, which is super fascinating that he’s a tremendous speaker, lecturer, incredibly knowledgeable, like one of the pioneers of stress research, are the best out there, for sure. And at first you might go, what does this have to with fitness? And then the more you watch it, you go through it, you listen we read, you go through the material, the more you realize, again, that the stress part of life is the most important part, if our goal is to be healthier and perform well and do everything. And so I think that just sent me off in directions. Outside of the traditional strength conditioning world is more of the biology end of things. Because if you don’t understand basic biology, then the strength conditioning is you have a big gap in your understanding of what we’re trying to

Brianna Battles  48:04

achieve, right? So much of this stuff, I feel like good coaching is just like you’re connecting dots from lots of different fields. Like you understand, like the psychology you understand, like the physiology, you understand the performance side of things. Like you just, and you work with a variety of humans and realize, like, there’s no, there’s not necessarily, like, one set formula that can be applied to everybody, but you can look for like common themes, common trends, and then use like data, like HRV to help kind of connect dots, on improving your coaching, but also improving their experience, regardless of what their what their goal or need is, yeah, no, exactly.

Joel Jamieson  48:37

That’s what it comes down to. It is a lot of coaching is connecting dots. And I would say a lot of coaching is education and helping people connect their own dots. And I would say the single biggest thing you learn when you go through all of this stuff and you look at data, you look at just human beings, you read the studies, you look at stress research, we’re all different people, like we all have different genetics and different environments across our lifetime, and we’re very unique. And so I think the unfortunate part about fitness is it’s a very copycat field, and especially with social media, like, Oh, I see this person doing this, or this person is talking about this diet, or this person’s taking this peptide, this person is doing this for sleep. This person like, that’s fine, but that’s not you, and maybe that’s the right thing for you. Maybe that’s the wrong thing for you, and you can find out by trying it. But I think just assuming that because somebody else is doing something that’s effective or it’s the right way to go is a misguided approach. You have to really learn what your body responds to, and I think you have to learn what it responds to in a sustainable way, not just for the next eight week diet or fat or whatever. You have to figure out who you are as an athlete or as an individual and follow your own path. And if you do that, you’ll have ups and downs, but you’ll be on the much better track than just copying whatever everyone else is doing on Instagram or just jumping from one fad diet or one fad training thing to the next. And as a coach, you know that’s what I’m always trying to reinforce for people, is you are unique, and what you need and what’s best for you is not. The same as me or anyone else, and you have to find that out for yourself through trial, error and education and a constant, you know, constant desire to to learn about yourself.

Brianna Battles  50:09

Yeah, because that never goes away. And like, then what you need at one in one season of life is going to be totally different than what you might need in another. And it doesn’t mean that’s necessarily you’re forever, like your homeostasis is, kind of seasonal, you know, it just, it ebbs and flows with you, and, you know, it’s and I work with, like, athlete Moms, I’m like, You can’t compare yourself to what you were doing at 25 because now you have a whole other human to take care of, and your body’s been through like, a significant physiological change, like, we can’t go back, we can only move forward. So how do we do that in like, a really strategic and intelligent way that kind of honors, honors, this transformation. It’s a big deal. We can’t undermine it.

Joel Jamieson  50:47

Yeah, 100% and again, that’s where, number one it starts with having that mindset of, I’m not just going to copy what I find online. I’m going to learn about what works for me. And then how do I do that? Well, I start by having some sort of framework of tracking what I’m doing to see if it’s working. And then I have some sort of way of trying things and approaching things from a sustainable way, rather than recognizing maybe I don’t need to get the fast results in four weeks. Maybe I want to get the most sustainable results over four months and setting tangible goals that are achievable and tracking them. And you know, having an actual foundation of being intelligently guided in your programming is the way to do it. And then again, like you said, over time, you’re going to learn more, and you’re going to adapt, and your body’s gonna change, and you’re going to keep learning. You’re just going to keep keep that process in play. And I think as a coach, I’m much more successful if I can help them understand that than just tell them what to do every day, because that’s not really sustainable for the rest of their life, and then for most part. And I’d rather teach them how to look at the big picture of their life and everything else, and learn how to put all pieces together themselves. Yeah, well, I

Brianna Battles  51:44

think that’s I know speaks to why you’ve had so much success in it, you know, in your run as a coach, and the work that you’ve done in a variety of ways. And I think anyone who’s listened to you has learned a lot today. So I really appreciate you sharing your time and your knowledge. Where can people learn more about you and the work that you do, sir,

Joel Jamieson  52:03

you just placed eight weeks out.com number eight, and then weeks out.com I’ve got courses certification. They learn more about my more HRV, app, all that sort of stuff to that website. One thing did come in mind is, if you’re a parent out there, you want to learn more about youth athletes. I get asked all the time, what do I learn about youth athletes? I hate to say this, but there are not many great resources out there, but the one I always recommend is a book called children and sports training by a guy named Joseph dreybeck. He’s a Polish guy. I believe you can find that book on Amazon just children and sports training. It’s a very, very good book that talks about the development across different age groups and gives specific exercises and principles. It’s the one resource. I basically say every parent or any coach that trains Youth Athletes should read. So of course, go to my website, eight weeks, zack.com but then also go to Amazon or wherever. And okay, get children sports training if you want to learn more about that end Polsky as well. Yeah, I definitely

Brianna Battles  52:55

appreciate that scope and like, Yeah, I think it’s just it’s so important for fellow coaches to learn from people like you who have been in the game for a long time and evolved what you’re doing in the game too. And I think that you know it’s really transferable, coach to coach, athlete to athlete, and lot of value here. So Joel, thank you so much for sharing today. No problem. Happy to come on. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the practice brave podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a review and help us spread the work we are doing to improve the overall information and messaging in the fitness industry and beyond. Now, if you are pregnant and you are looking for a trustworthy exercise program to follow, I have you covered. The pregnant athlete training program is a well rounded program for pregnancy with workouts for each week that are appropriate for your changing body. That’s 36 weeks of workouts, three to four workouts each week, and tons of guidance on exercise strategy. We also have an at home version of that program if you are postpartum and you’re looking for an exercise program to follow. The eight week postpartum athlete training program would be a really great way to help bridge the gap between rehab and the fitness you actually want to do. From there, we have the practice brave fitness program, which is an ongoing strength conditioning program where you get new workouts each week and have a lot of guidance for myself and my co coach, Heather Osby, this is the only way that I’m really offering ongoing coaching at this point in time. If you have ever considered becoming a certified pregnancy and postpartum athleticism coach, I would love to have you join us. Pregnancy and postpartum athleticism is a self paced online certification course that will up level your coaching skills and help connect the dots between pelvic health and long term athletic performance, especially during pregnancy and postpartum, become who you needed and become who your online and local community needs by becoming a certified pregnancy and postpartum athleticism Coach, thank you again for listening. Listening to the practice brave podcast, I appreciate you, and please help me continue spreading this messaging, this information and this work.